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Refugees in the Second World War

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Thunder
Posts: 436
Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 01:43

Refugees in the Second World War

Post by Thunder »

TNA are indexing the records in series WO 208 which detail interrogations of civilians arriving in the UK, these files have been open but unindexed for some years but TNA will not be putting the names in their Discovery catalogue until the people are 100 years old. This will stop family historians researching leads to relatives. What is the point of indexing the records if we can't search them?. Anyone could research some of the files and put the details online, but not TNA!. A case is WO 208/3742/13/2 which will not have the details of the person available until 2028.

https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ro ... om-abroad/
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AdrianBruce
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Location: South Cheshire

Re: Refugees in the Second World War

Post by AdrianBruce »

There is a logical inconsistency here (no surprise, perhaps).

If data about people not dead - or less than 100y old in the absence of proof of death - is regarded as private, how can the items be open for research (revealing the names and details) but not open for indexing (because the names would be revealed)? :x
Adrian Bruce
Thunder
Posts: 436
Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 01:43

Re: Refugees in the Second World War

Post by Thunder »

Adrian,

I quite agree, if (as is the case is) that the records are open then the names should be published, they may claim that there are different rules about putting personal information on the Internet. If TNA applied this throughout their catalogue then the vast number of records would have the details redacted, just imagine that?. Even when people are alive (or considered to be alive) the names are open on the catalogue. Bizarre is not the word, have TNA not realised that the catalogue is there for researchers to find the records.
VALLMO9
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Re: Refugees in the Second World War

Post by VALLMO9 »

Thunder wrote: 03 Dec 2021, 17:44 Anyone could research some of the files and put the details online, but not TNA!
Are you suggesting that someone with access to the files would do something so unethical? I certainly hope not.

During WW2, my teenage Mum went to school with a Dutch refugee. The refugee confided in Mum the atrocities committed on her family and the local townspeople at the hands of the Waffen-SS. Very horrific stuff. One vile incident involved an SS Officer's jackboot and a baby. I'll leave it there.

If there is a Refugee file on Mum's classmate, I dare say her family want it to remain confidential. In fact, she could still be alive.

I'm sure paid researchers will strongly disagree with my view. But I feel records of this nature should be kept on a "need to know" basis, and names not put online for all to see. Unless one is related to one of these refugees, why is Data Protection an issue?

Even today, academic research involving modern day refugees is always kept confidential. When research aides interview refugees, their names do not appear in the published studies. And rightly so.
Thunder
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Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 01:43

Re: Refugees in the Second World War

Post by Thunder »

VALLMO9 wrote: 06 Dec 2021, 17:20
Thunder wrote: 03 Dec 2021, 17:44 Anyone could research some of the files and put the details online, but not TNA!
Are you suggesting that someone with access to the files would do something so unethical? I certainly hope not.

During WW2, my teenage Mum went to school with a Dutch refugee. The refugee confided in Mum the atrocities committed on her family and the local townspeople at the hands of the Waffen-SS. Very horrific stuff. One vile incident involved an SS Officer's jackboot and a baby. I'll leave it there.

If there is a Refugee file on Mum's classmate, I dare say her family want it to remain confidential. In fact, she could still be alive.

I'm sure paid researchers will strongly disagree with my view. But I feel records of this nature should be kept on a "need to know" basis, and names not put online for all to see. Unless one is related to one of these refugees, why is Data Protection an issue?

Even today, academic research involving modern day refugees is always kept confidential. When research aides interview refugees, their names do not appear in the published studies. And rightly so.
I have to disagree with you and especially on this being "unethical", the descriptions contains names and where the refugees came from. For example the following document is listed by TNA as "WO 208/3742/13/41944 Nov 9: Interrogation number: 24620. Name: Knud H Svenson. Date of birth: 1 March 1917. Place of birth: Denmark. Residence: not specified. Occupation: Fisherman. Left: Denmark, 15 October 1944. Arrived in UK: not specified, via not specified. Includes: 1 Map, and 3 Plans". Files cannot be closed for ever and data protection assumes 100 years from the date of birth or assumed date of birth but these files were released by the Ministry of Defence before data protection. We are taking about records no later than 1945. I am sure no-one (unlike the British Government in the case of Odette Sansom/Hallowes/Churchill) would publish such gory details as they did in the published Official History of the Special Operations Executive in France, she was at the time alive and rightly complained and as many of the copies of the published book were recalled and the book reprinted. There have certainly been information released of British soldiers from the First World War whose injuries would cause problems in them having children are somewhat graphic. The issue of names is that in general names should be included in TNA's catalogue even when they concern alleged crimes (with a footnote saying that the person was not necessarily found guilty), bankruptcy, immigration, racial discrimination, compensation, etc but rarely lurid or gory details. If seems to me that you are raising the issue of access to the files rather than the descriptions, the only descriptions that I can remember which might cause concern are those of the people in Ravensbruck Concentration Camps in series RW 2 and for example the file about Claire VAN DEN BOOM includes details of incidents on individuals which are closed for 82 years from the date of the last paper on the file.
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AdrianBruce
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Location: South Cheshire

Re: Refugees in the Second World War

Post by AdrianBruce »

VALLMO9 wrote: 06 Dec 2021, 17:20 ... I feel records of this nature should be kept on a "need to know" basis, and names not put online for all to see. ... Even today, academic research involving modern day refugees is always kept confidential. When research aides interview refugees, their names do not appear in the published studies. And rightly so.
That's certainly a legitimate viewpoint about refugee research. The problem is that nothing appears to be consistent and TNA appear to be relying on the good wishes of people in order to effect something instead of taking action itself - if that action is needed.

Take reference WO 208/3742/13/2 - the catalogue states
Description: Date of birth: 1927.
Interrogation number: 24616 [The person's name and additional information will be added to the catalogue 100 years after the date of birth.]
But the Catalogue also states:
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
So the way that I read this, anyone could request this item and there is nothing that I can see requesting the researcher to keep the details confidential. It might be that there is a request inside the file but somehow I doubt that TNA have added such requests to all the files. So the file is not available on a need-to-know basis - it's openly available.

So this particular name is currently kept confidential index-wise. If the information should be restricted (if), the index is OK, but then the name etc appear to be freely available in the file itself and there appear to be no visible restrictions on publication. This is what I mean about relying on good wishes - if the information should be kept confidential, then TNA aren't putting any controls in place. If this were a safety matter, TNA would be hung out to dry for just relying on someone to "do the right thing" - they would be obligated to set up a process.

Fundamentally, it's contradictory - if the information is to be open, then it should be in the index because it's open in the document. But if the information is to be confidential then there are no processes in place to request that confidentiality that I can see.
Adrian Bruce
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