WDYTYA 2023 Series

[meekhcs]

Mick Loney

I was surprised that no-one mentioned the striking resemblance of Andrew’s daughter to the photo of his grandmother ( or was it Greatgrandmother?), as to me they had an uncanny likeness.

Two great minds, I said exactly the same to my husband.

We too enjoyed the episode. Andrew Lloyd Webber often appears a little pompous and eccentric and I wondered how he would come across but he seemed very "natural" as opposed to many in the past. I agree it would have been nice to see Julian play the piece written by their ancestor.

[Thunder]

I thought the Bear Grylls episode was very good, shame that BBC Scotland gave away the ending a few weeks ago!!.

[phsvm]

Reference - Julian playing the pieces composed by their ancestor.

Julian stopped playing in public some years ago, due to a neck problem. I suspect that he felt that having been so wonderful when he did play publicly that he'd be unable to do the pieces justice.

A bit like a sportsman coming out of retirement for one last match - they never quite met expectations.

[AdrianBruce]

I really enjoyed the Kevin Clifton episode. It went into an area (Canadian First Nations) that I don't remember seeing before, so made a pleasant change. Incidentally, I think I may have lost a generation or two in my memory of the episode - was it Matooskie's daughter who was the (apparently) battered wife or a later generation? I can't find any trees illustrating what was found.

(I do wonder if Kevin's Dad was primed by the researchers to mention her name or whether it really had been handed down in the family?)

[Mick Loney]

Adrian,
It was Matooskie’s daughter Grace who married at 16 and was the subject of the abuse, and divorced from her older husband. Grace was a survivor of the boating accident involving Matooskie.
What they didn’t quite explain, or glossed over, was how Grace no suname on the marrige to the older man, became a daughter of Nancy also known as Ann (I get Ann and Nancy are synonomous) who then miraculously became Matooskie. They seemed to present it as fact, without really showing how or why they came to that conclusion.

[AdrianBruce]

That's what I thought but... Just been Googling as bit more... I think a generation was rushed over, at best. Maybe edited badly.

From https://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine ... k-you-are/

A check of census records reveals that Kevin’s 2x great grandmother, Emma, was born in British Columbia. He also finds that, in 1891, Emma was living in an orphanage.

Then the previous generation (the 3xG GM) is the battered wife:

his 3x great grandmother, Grace, and her husband, John, were involved in a bitter divorce case in an era when divorce was rare. Despite John admitting “I did blacken her eyes on one occasion,” he was granted custody of the children, who ended up in the orphanage.

Then look at this - the website jumps to the 5G-GM

he discovers that his 5x great grandparents were the chief of the trading post, John George McTavish, and his ‘country wife’, Matooski, aka Nancy.

So where's the 4G-GM? Well, on http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/mckenzie_nancy_8E.html, is an article about "McKENZIE, NANCY (McTavish; Le Blanc) (also known by the Indian name Matooskie)". It talks about "the drowning of Nancy’s husband [i.e. Matooskie's husband] and their two other children". Then says:

Nancy and her youngest daughter by McTavish, Grace, were given a home at Fort Vancouver (Vancouver, Wash.). In 1842 Grace married Charles Dodd, captain of the steamship Beaver, and Nancy McKenzie lived with the Dodds for the rest of her life.

So if Nancy / Matooskie is the 5G GM, then Grace later Dodd (or a sibling) is the 4G-GM.

So surely there are two Graces, on two different generations - the battered 3G-GM (whose husband is John) and the Grace whose husband is steamship captain Charles Dodd (not John and the wrong profession surely?) on the same generation as the 4G GM - not sure if she is the 4G-GM?

Also https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~coigach ... ooskie.htm gives the children of the Dodds:

In 1842 Grace married at Fort Vancouver to Charles Dodd, captain of the Beaver, first steamship on the west coast, and Matooskie lived with the Dodds for the rest of her life. ... The family looks to have lived there till 1845, with daughter Mary Grace Dodd born 1843, then moved to Fort Victoria, where Elizabeth Nancy "Ann" Dodd was born in November 1845. ... their third child, Charles John Dodd, was born 1848 at Fort Simpson.

I'm not sure that the Dodds are Kevin's ancestors... The dates don't feel right... Confused?

[AdrianBruce]

Dipping into and out of iPlayer and listening to commentory or reading certificates... Too many Graces...

His 3rd GPs
John Russell (cab driver) marr Jan 1882 Grace Gorridge (16y old so b abt 1866) (this Grace is the battered wife). The marr cert says Grace's parents are Alexander(?not sure?) & Grace.

The baptism is in 1867 and refers to Grace Harriett Gorridge b 24 Dec 1865 to Elvey Gorridge & Grace McTavish.

So Elvey Gorridge & Grace McTavish are his 4G GPs. Their marriage certificate is in Jan 1864 and is for Alfred Gorridge and Grace DODD dau of John George McTavish and Nancy no-surname. The expert explained that this is Grace's 2nd marriage - she first married Charles Dodd (the sea captain mentioned above) but he died.

So his 5G GPs are John George McTavish and Nancy no-surname - the latter being Matooskie.

That 2nd marriage for Grace, Matooskie's dau, makes the names and dates work. I think...

[AdrianBruce]

... who then miraculously became Matooskie. ...

I think that Matooskie was referred to as being already well-known to historians of First Nations, simply because of the number of letters and documents that survive referring to her. And the number of Google references to her, bear this out.

[Mick Loney]

... who then miraculously became Matooskie. ...

I think that Matooskie was referred to as being already well-known to historians of First Nations, simply because of the number of letters and documents that survive referring to her. And the number of Google references to her, bear this out.

No, I meant Matooskie is suddenly declared his ancestor, with no lead up. They may have known a lot about her, but their audience didn’t

It didn’t help that kevin kept referring to his ancestor as his great-great-great-great-great-grand… etc rather than using numbers like my 5’ggmother. Even he lost count of how many greats were involved. It would have helped if the programme illustrated the links graphically a bit more often.

[AdrianBruce]

... No, I meant Matooskie is suddenly declared his ancestor, with no lead up. They may have known a lot about her, but their audience didn’t

It didn’t help that kevin kept referring to his ancestor as his great-great-great-great-great-grand… etc rather than using numbers like my 5’ggmother. ...

Yes, KC not doing "5G" or whatever didn't help us keep track... And yes, the Matooskie trail was a bit rushed - especially when we look at her swapping names.