Birth record brick wall

[ManonChirgwin]

Hi everyone. I would be so grateful for any help getting past this brick wall.

I’m looking for the birth record for John Herbert Walsh (1884-1993) he lived in Liverpool but all censuses etc list his place of birth as the Isle of Man (his father is listed as a musician which might explain that). His father is Matthew Walsh and mother is Sarah/Helen (not sure of mother’s name as 2 on census and birth record would help).

This is where I hit a brick wall! I cannot find a birth record anywhere. Nothing comes up on Find My Past or Ancestry, nothing that seems relevant comes up on FreeBMD or ManxBMD.

I welcome any advice on this. Thank you

[VALLMO9]

It appears that Matthew Walsh (musician) married a Mary Ann Burns on 17 July 1881 in Hulme, Manchester. It doesn't sound like she's the Shropshire-born lady in the 1891-1901 census reports. As such, what happened to Mary Ann? Did she die? Or did she and Matthew go their separate ways by 1884?

One thing to consider is that John Herbert (born 1884 - Isle of Man) could be registered under his mother's maiden name - whatever that might be. All depends on whether Matthew Walsh was on the Isle of Man c1884, or if John Herbert's mother met MW in Lancashire after JH's birth.

Do you have the mother in the 1911 census? Her birthplace is consistent in the Liverpool census reports: Gobowen, Shropshire.

Interesting that MW's occupation is "Professor of Music" on the census reports. Have you tried researching where he might have worked from 1881 to 1901? Or was he more like a private music tutor?

[ManonChirgwin]

Hi VALLMO9,

I hadn't seen the Burns marriage but I'll have a look at that one and what might have happened to her.

I did think maybe he could be registered under her maiden name but like you say whatever that might be!

I haven't got Matthew on the 1911 census - John Herbert is living with his first wife and family by then - but the marriage certificate does say deceased under father when John marries in 1905. All the information from marriage certificates is being taken with a pinch of salt until i find a corresponding death record etc (John ultimately is a bigamist after his first wife dies so might have been one for embellishments )

I haven't looked much at Matthew's profession beyond a google search of his name out of curiosity. Nothing comes up in that way but its on my to-do list for further research.

I think this is going to be one of those brick walls that slowly but suddenly comes down

[AdrianBruce]

Interesting that MW's occupation is "Professor of Music" on the census reports. Have you tried researching where he might have worked from 1881 to 1901? Or was he more like a private music tutor?

My impression is that "Professor of Music" tends to be a music teacher / tutor in this sort of era, rather than anything more upmarket / formal. (You might very well find him in the Trade Directories because advertising his availability would be important).

[Templ4r]

It might be worth taking a look at Sarah J Davies, born 1869 in Gobowen, Shropshire. She's in Oswestry in 1871 and Burslem in 1881. Her father is John a Cabinet maker and she has a brother Herbert.

Maybe she lied about her age as she should be 32 in 1901.

[VALLMO9]

Just out of interest, do you know which regiment JHW served with during WW1? The 1916 bigamy charge in Canterbury states he was a soldier at the time. If his service record exists, it'll be interesting to see what birthplace is given.

I note that the bigamy charge is briefly mentioned in a couple of Kent newspapers. His regiment may be noted in the report(s).

[avaline]

A newspaper report about the bigamy charge wrongly names him as John A Walsh, a private in the Royal Field Artillery. Married first in April 1914, Wavertree, then again in April 1916 in Canterbury, claiming to be a bachelor. The report says he enlisted 1 January 1915 and an officer from the regiment had given him an excellent character reference.

There is also a later RFA attestation record for him on 25 Jun 1921, which again states his PoB as Isle of Man, aged 37 years & 5 months, and a Carter. It also names his three children, all born Wavertree.
John James born 28 May 1906
William Herbert born 13 May 1909
Amy Matilda born [blank] May 1916 .

The record also gives his former service number - 675582 - and the WW1 medal records show he was a Driver in the Territorial Force.

Turning to the children, I can see the birth registrations for the two boys, but not for Amy Matilda, who he claims was born shortly after his bigamous marriage to Lily Rose Shilling. In fact I can't find ANY reference to Amy Matilda other than this mention on his second attestation.

[avaline]

It appears that Matthew Walsh (musician) married a Mary Ann Burns on 17 July 1881 in Hulme, Manchester. It doesn't sound like she's the Shropshire-born lady in the 1891-1901 census reports. As such, what happened to Mary Ann? Did she die? Or did she and Matthew go their separate ways by 1884?

It looks like they went their separate ways, but if this baptism at Chorlton upon Medlock is true then it was after John Herbert's birth.

22 Jan 1890 (born 14 Aug 1887) Edith d/o Matthew & Mary WALSH, 6 Boundary Street, Chorlton upon Medlock, Musician

At Boundary Street East, Chorlton in 1901:
Mary Walsh 33 Widow Shirt Seamstress b Lancashire
Margaret Walsh 8 daur b Lancashire
Edith Walsh 3 b Lancashire

Baptism at St Michael's, Hulme:
Privately baptised 3 May 1886 (born 6 May 1882) Margaret d/o Matthew & Mary WALSH, late burns, married at St Mary's Hulme, 22 Tipper Street, Musician

WALSH, MARGARET mmn BURNS GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 897
WALSH, EDITH mmn BURNS GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 809

By 1901 Mary & the girls are still in Chorlton, but Mary has also acquired a son - James aged 6 - as well as a 'lodger' named James McGovern aged 39.

WALSH, JAMES MCGOVERN mmn BURNS GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 937
Private Baptism 4 Apr 1895 (born 30 Jan 1895) James McGovern s/o James McGovern & Mary WALSH, 3 Hargreaves Street, Moulder
(written as if the father was also named James McGovern Walsh)

[avaline]

Oooh, and here's a twist for you.

Edith married Percival Henry Kealey in 1911, and guess where he died.... the Isle of Man, 1958.

[VALLMO9]

Finally a DoB! Sounds like JHW's service file can be ordered from the MOD for £30. There's currently a very long wait to receive documents.

UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971
Name: JH Walsh
Birth Date: 9 Jan 1884
Service Number: 1665845
Rank: Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939
Reference Number: ADT000680121

Still the mystery who his actual mother is, given that Mary Ann Walsh (nee Burns) had two children in Chorlton. If JHW was her son, why does he reside with Matthew Walsh, and not Mary Ann?