Second World War personnel records at TNA

[AdrianBruce]

... as the TNA Youtube clip states: "There would also be some caveats to protect personal information, specifically this meant that for individuals born less than 100 years ago -- and therefore considered likely to still be alive -- we would redact the descriptions to show just the initials and surname and the year of birth". ...

See https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ca ... l-records/

My problem is that, according to that transcript, all index entries show only initials, never first names. It's not a restriction imposed when the soldiers are born less than 100y ago - or even less than 115y ago. For example, this chap who was born 119y ago:

Reference: WO 420/38659
Description: Name: A Bruce.
Service number: 10575027.
Date of birth: 07 July 1903.

The blog says:

We knew that we needed the descriptions to be useful to readers searching for individual service people and as consistent as possible

Well, that doesn't look very useful if I'm searching for one particular A Bruce, and I don't know what birthday he used to join up with.

As I commented on that blog, it appears that we will be getting less access once the records go to TNA. Currently, if I can provide proof of death, I can get at least some information. Currently, if I can provide proof of death and get permission from the next of kin, I can get the full details, no matter when the person was born.

[Thunder]

The problem is that full names should be included, I know TNA/departments are not that good at transcribing some records (spelling, dates of birth and birth places or not including the information) and sometimes I am looking for someone special. Sometimes the entries are pretty useless, for example men or women who were in POW camps cannot be linked with these new records because the former (POW records) have full names and these records do not. In my view TNA are doing the least they can get away with doing, just try looking for a J Smith or similar as Adrian says you need to know the stated date of birth and the catalogue entries have no place of birth. In my view the records should have been listed by full name, date of birth and place of birth. It seems to me that TNA want to 'tick boxes' and not help researchers.

[Thunder]

In my view they should have used full names of servicemen and servicewomen,

But as the TNA Youtube clip states: "There would also be some caveats to protect personal information, specifically this meant that for individuals born less than 100 years ago -- and therefore considered likely to still be alive -- we would redact the descriptions to show just the initials and surname and the year of birth".

I have to ask: Are you looking for your relatives in these records? Or do you just like to peruse these record collections out of curiosity?

As I have just said tonight I am looking at particular people (TNA/MOD still haven't released my grandfather's file from 1912-1923, he was born in 1893 and died in 1969), but on a more general note I think researchers should be able to find what they are looking for. As Adrian Bruce has pointed out the descriptions for people born over 100 years ago only have initials of the Christian names and full surnames. There is so much inconsistency in the catalogue descriptions but then TNA don't have to try looking for the records.

[VALLMO9]

(TNA/MOD still haven't released my grandfather's file from 1912-1923, he was born in 1893 and died in 1969)

If your grandfather served into the 1920s why don't you just order his record from the MOD? Or am I missing something?
My grandfather was a career soldier, and later worked for the War Department during WW2. He served from 1915-1936. The MOD had his FULL service record for those 21 years, which amounted to roughly 35 pages. He passed away in the mid-1960s. If memory serves I ordered his military file circa 2009 and received it 4-6 weeks later.

[Norfolk Nan]

Why pay someone to do the work if research is the bit you want to do yourself? I paid £30 for my grandfather’s records but it took two years of waiting.

I don’t want to trek down to TNA so I’d pay whatever the reason but Thunder’s point is that TNA is a national archive supposedly making national records available to researchers. It would seem logical to make the catalogues, indexes, whatever, user-friendly, not obscure as initials do. You only have to look at the death records to see how many people with the same name and initials died, let alone served, during the wars - an extra hint for identification isn’t impossible surely? It does feel like TNA is opting for the least effort rather than a good service.

[VALLMO9]

I appreciate that someone might not want to request a military file directly from the MOD, but I'm still confused by Thunder stating "the TNA/MOD still haven't released my grandfather's file..." - specifically the term released has me confused.
Does Thunder mean the file in question doesn't appear in TNA's Discovery catalogue? Or has Thunder requested the file, but the MOD/TNA will not make it available (for a specific reason)?

By the way, here is TNA's guidance regarding Other ranks service records, 1921-1939
"These are service records of other ranks discharged from the infantry of the British Army between 1921 and 1939. They do not yet include records from the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Cavalry, or Guards Regiments.
These records are not currently available to search on the catalogue, but can be requested by filling in one of the forms available above (charges may apply)".

As regards indexing, I would be interested to learn why TNA decided not to index these particular records using given names. Hopefully they can offer guidance on the matter, as the blurb below isn't very transparent, particularly as regards initials.

"Of great importance, our descriptions also had to be ethically and legally sound; we needed to make sure that we were showing the respect required to each record subject, particularly as many of the files include considerable personal information. Taking all of this into account we settled on catalogue descriptions showing initials, surnames, service numbers and dates of birth where this information was available".

Personally, I don't believe TNA are going out of their way to hinder a researcher's efforts. I may never get to grips with their vast cataloguing systems, but as a former library cataloguer of highly confidential documents, I totally appreciate the legal requirement to adhere to Data Protection protocols, etc.

[Thunder]

(TNA/MOD still haven't released my grandfather's file from 1912-1923, he was born in 1893 and died in 1969)

If your grandfather served into the 1920s why don't you just order his record from the MOD? Or am I missing something?
My grandfather was a career soldier, and later worked for the War Department during WW2. He served from 1915-1936. The MOD had his FULL service record for those 21 years, which amounted to roughly 35 pages. He passed away in the mid-1960s. If memory serves I ordered his military file circa 2009 and received it 4-6 weeks later.

My late Mother asked MOD for the details of her Father back in 1982 and got the basic details but MOD and inaction by TNA over these records (which was raised on many occasions by researchers at the now defunct User Forum which was abolished by TNA) had led to MOD sitting on these files I see no reason why I should have to pay £30 and wait months, if not years, to receive the information.

[Thunder]

I appreciate that someone might not want to request a military file directly from the MOD, but I'm still confused by Thunder stating "the TNA/MOD still haven't released my grandfather's file..." - specifically the term released has me confused.
Does Thunder mean the file in question doesn't appear in TNA's Discovery catalogue? Or has Thunder requested the file, but the MOD/TNA will not make it available (for a specific reason)?

By the way, here is TNA's guidance regarding Other ranks service records, 1921-1939
"These are service records of other ranks discharged from the infantry of the British Army between 1921 and 1939. They do not yet include records from the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Cavalry, or Guards Regiments.
These records are not currently available to search on the catalogue, but can be requested by filling in one of the forms available above (charges may apply)".

As regards indexing, I would be interested to learn why TNA decided not to index these particular records using given names. Hopefully they can offer guidance on the matter, as the blurb below isn't very transparent, particularly as regards initials.

"Of great importance, our descriptions also had to be ethically and legally sound; we needed to make sure that we were showing the respect required to each record subject, particularly as many of the files include considerable personal information. Taking all of this into account we settled on catalogue descriptions showing initials, surnames, service numbers and dates of birth where this information was available".

Personally, I don't believe TNA are going out of their way to hinder a researcher's efforts. I may never get to grips with their vast cataloguing systems, but as a former library cataloguer of highly confidential documents, I totally appreciate the legal requirement to adhere to Data Protection protocols, etc.

My grandfather was in the Royal Artillery. His record has not yet been transferred. I used to work in the FOI Centre at TNA and understand data protection and I support it, if only TNA did, but not listing the names in full is wrong. TNA never objected to putting full names of men who suffered in the First World War which resulted in mental health problems and specific 'male injuries' all of those medical conditions are on the catalogue at a time when they may still have been alive.

[VALLMO9]

My grandfather was in the Royal Artillery. His record has not yet been transferred.

So why not request it directly from the MOD? Or do you not want to pay the £30?

Perhaps there have been newer Data Protection laws - superseding those DP laws that governed the available WW1 records which you describe.
If that is the case, it could explain why TNA are placing stricter controls on the WW2 records in question. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.

I could tell you once worked for TNA. Did you retire, or leave for greener pastures?

[Norfolk Nan]

Why the baiting, Mo? Sorry but this is getting too direct and personal and not sticking to the general discussion.