Southwark Workhouse Records

[Norfolk Nan]

Poplar didn't help, Mick. I found a possible birth, bought the cert, but it's not him. I do know his parents and his date of birth (according to him in 1939) but I would just like to pin him down - was it Isleworth, Poplar or Ireland!! It would help work out his parent's story too - all I know is John and Ellen Lee from Ireland. Ho hum.

I think he and his parents are in Newport, Monmouthshire in the 1871 census (place of birth Ireland) and looking around the area every household in the street is occupied by the Irish!

And to make me even more frustrated his wife's birth registration is missing from the GRO. Fifth birth of seven, all others easily found. It's another mystery...

[VALLMO9]

Given that the 1921 census lists his birthplace as "Poplar" consider there may have been some confusion. After all, his parents lived at Poplar Cottages in Isleworth, as per the 1901 census. Maybe John Lee had the name "Poplar" on the brain when the 1921 census was done?

Did you ever locate John Lee in the 1891 census? 1881: He's the 13 year old lodger, living with his parents John & Ellen, in Isleworth, correct?

[Norfolk Nan]

I think so, Mo. There are so many inconsistencies in the story of John and his parents John and Ellen that I can't be sure of anything.

[Mick Loney]

Given that the 1921 census lists his birthplace as "Poplar" consider there may have been some confusion. After all, his parents lived at Poplar Cottages in Isleworth, as per the 1901 census. Maybe John Lee had the name "Poplar" on the brain when the 1921 census was done?

Did you ever locate John Lee in the 1891 census? 1881: He's the 13 year old lodger, living with his parents John & Ellen, in Isleworth, correct?

Is that what was actually written, or is that what has been transcribed? I’ve seen some real atrocious transcriptions recently, and I’ve barely started

[jonwarrn]

It's now online!
The famous John Lee interview in London Transport Magazine, September 1955.
Cost Twopence(!)
Norfolk Nan, I don't remember you telling us that John was on the cover. What a wonderful old chap!
A Face of Many Memories
This "grand old man" of the bus world, John Lee, turned ninety, recalls early days on the road to four of Holloway's young bus folk of to-day.
Story appears on page ten

Images 86, 91 (of 187)
https://tfl-2.access.preservica.com/unc ... 1798464630

[Norfolk Nan]

Oh, I didn't know that! By coincidence I'm looking at my own copy of that interview, handed to me by my mum right at the beginning of my research c1985. I, innocently, thought 'that's easy, I have all this info now' but I've yet to prove a bit of it. Mum says he was a 'gentleman' and he might have been but he never told the same fact twice! Add to his story, the story of his wife's missing birth certificate and her first bigamous marriage and you've almost got it all!

Yes, Poplar is handwritten on the original...

[VALLMO9]

I'm confused: The London Transport Magazine article states 90 year old John Lee joined the LGC in 1887, after serving 6 years with the Army horse transport. That suggests he enlisted around 1881 or earlier. But...if he's the John Lee (age 13) in the 1881 census living in Isleworth, he's not exactly in the Army. So, is he telling porkies, or is he not the teenage John Lee in Isleworth in 1881?

Also, he mentions the LGC strike of 1891 in the LTM article, so he must be in London when the 1891 census was taken. Perhaps he wasn't at home when the census taker came knocking. Wasn't he also a Royal Mail cart driver during the 1890s?

The article mentions he served in the Boer War, yet he's in the 1901 census. So the Boer War service doesn't add up either.

Here is a photo from the General Strike edition of the Daily Graphic, published on 15 May 1926. It shows bus workers outside the Holloway London General Omnibus Company depot after the 1926 strike. https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/reco ... est-garage

Have you contacted the TfL Corporate Archives for any available LGOC staff records, etc?
Also, Newham Archives and Local Studies Library have some early LGOC staff records in their Special Collections. Email enquiries to: archiveslocalstudies@newham.gov.uk

[VALLMO9]

Did John Lee have any connection to Alexander Road, Holloway? In 1912 there's a John Lee (motor omnibus driver) of that address, who was summoned for speeding and was fined. He said he did not know he was going at such rate, a learner on the ’bus was monopolising his attention'.

[Norfolk Nan]

Hi Mo

Yes, you see my problem! I took it that the 1955 article was with a 90 year old looking back on a long life and forgetting the fine details and wanting to tell a good story but I've yet to find one fact that is definately him. For example, many John Lees mentioned in the c1900 army records are from 'London' so not helpful. And yes, on his daughter's birth cert in 1894 he was a Royal Mail Cart driver, a fact overlooked in the article, and in 1899 he's a farrier on his marriage certificate - of course he might have been a farrier for the LGOC - but then his marriage certificate was full of inaccuracies anyway. I'd like to crack the problem of his birth and work out who his parents were (I know John and Ellen, both born c1832 in Ireland, died in Isleworth in 1916 within a couple of days of each other) but I need one actual fact!!!

As you know, I think all three are in Newport, Monmouthshire in 1871 despite John jnr being only 3 on the form. The older couple did two stints in Iselworth, being there in 1881, in Islington in 1891, back in Isleworth in 1901 until their deaths in 1916. In Newport and Isleworth I found a number of newspaper articles about an Ellen Lee charged and fined for fighting(!!!), and both women are linked to a John but I can't be sure it's my couple in either place. Just shows how common the names are. Woe is me

I haven't found that last fact about him being fined for speeding, that's interesting! Can you let me have a link please? Thank you.

And thank you for all the interest in this little family.

[VALLMO9]

The other problem is the various birth years recorded for John Lee. So far, I've seen 1860, 1862, 1864, 1865 and 1868. His age (90) in the magazine article can't be trusted. Unless you find a definitive army service record for him (with the Horse Transport) I tend to think he had a vivid imagination. Perhaps he appropriated one of his work colleagues Boer War and WW1 exploits for himself. I'd take that article with a pinch of salt, if I were you.

The first time he's recorded as an omnibus driver is the 1901 census. Yet he mentions the LGOC 1891 strike. The question is: What year did he become an omnibus driver and where? Obviously he has gaps in his LGOC employment (e.g. Royal Mail cart driver in 1894). The LT article suggests that John Lee had a lengthy LGOC career, starting in 1887. Maybe so, but it obviously had a gap or two. It doesn't appear to be consistent service.

Hopefully Newham Archives can help you with LGOC staff records.

Did you ever track down Henry Lee from the 1891 census? The teenage son living with John & Ellen Lee in Islington (next door to Caroline Wetton).

Is this Henry Lee? His age more or less fits the 1891 census.

Islington Gazette 08 June 1903
Henry Lee (age 24) of Pentonville Hill was charged with stealing a handkerchief from the bag of Mrs Ada Yates. Lengthy report about the court case. The word "impudently" is mentioned! Henry was sent to gaol for 3 months hard labour.